AMY GOODMAN:
Our next guest has been called
“the Elvis of cultural theory,” widely considered to be one of Europe’s leading
intellectuals. Slavoj Zizek is a philosopher, psychoanalyst, cultural theorist.
Born in Slovenia, he has written more than fifty books, speaks to sold-out
audiences around the world. In 1990, he campaigned unsuccessfully to be
president of Slovenia, the first Yugoslav republic to hold a free election.
He’s in New York right now to
give a lecture tonight called “Resist, Attack, Undermine: Where Are We Forty
Years After ’68?” The event opens this year’s Left Forum. Slavoj Zizek joins us
here in the firehouse studio.
We welcome you to Democracy
Now!
SLAVOJ ZIZEK:
Thank you very much. I am
honored to be here.
AMY GOODMAN:
When I asked you specifically
how to pronounce your name, you said you’re nervous about people who pronounce
it correctly.
SLAVOJ ZIZEK:
Yes, because I —- no, but this
is more a private trauma, like I don’t like to see myself. Whenever I see
myself, like there on the screen, I’m tempted to adopt the position of an
observer and ask myself, if I were to have a daughter, I would never allow that
guy to take me to a movie theater. So -—
AMY GOODMAN:
But you also said you would be
concerned if it was pronounced exactly, that perhaps that person came from the
police.
SLAVOJ ZIZEK:
Yeah. Effectively, yeah,
because only they really know. You know, this is at least my East European
myth, that police are the ones who know.
AMY GOODMAN:
This is a radio and a
television and an internet show, broadcasting all at the same time. We showed,
during Charlie Haden’s music break, coverage of Prague in ’68. This had an
enormous influence on you. For an audience who would not even know what those
two connections are — Prague ’68 — explain what happened. And where were you?
SLAVOJ ZIZEK:
It’s like, by chance, I was
very young at that point. I was in Prague. But OK, so that we don’t lose time —
there is something really tragic about Prague ’68, namely — let’s be very
frank, and it’s something very hard to swallow for a leftist. What if the
Soviet intervention was a blessing in disguise? It saved the myth that if the Soviets
were not to intervene, there would have been some flowering authentic
democratic socialism and so on. I’m a little bit more of a pessimist there. I
think that the Soviets — it’s a very sad lesson — by their intervention, saved
the myth. Imagine no Soviet intervention. In that ideological constellation, it
would have been either, sooner or later, just joining the West or, nonetheless,
at a certain point, the government is still in power, would have to put the
brakes. It’s always the same story. It’s the same in — now you see my
conservative, skeptical leftist side.
It’s the same in China,
Tiananmen. I will tell you something horrible. Imagine the Communists in power
giving way to the demonstrators. I claim — it’s very sad things to say, but if
Tiananmen demonstrations were to succeed, like the Communist Party allowing for
true democratic reforms and so on, it would have been probably a chaos in
China. No, I’m not saying now that we should opt for dictatorship or some kind
of a strong arm as the only solution; just let’s not dwell in safe illusions.
I think all too often today’s
left falls into this play, which is why they like to lose. And I think this is
the original sin of the left, from the very beginning. I — and I still consider
myself, I’m sorry to tell you, a Marxist and a Communist, but I couldn’t help
noticing how all the best Marxist analyses are always analyses of a failure.
They have this incredible — like, why did Paris Commune go wrong? Trotskyites.
Why did the October Revolution go wrong? And so on. You know, this deep
satisfaction — OK, we screwed it up, but we can give the best theory why it had
to happen. I mean, this is what my title, the title of tonight’s talk,
implicitly refers to, this comfortable position of resistance. Don’t mess with
power. This is today’s slogan of the left. Don’t play with power. Power
corrupts you. Resist, resist, withdraw and resist from a safe moralistic
position. I found this very sad.
AMY GOODMAN:
The second part of the topic,
“Resist, Attack, Undermine: Where Are We Forty Years After ’68?” Talk about
what you see as the pivotal moments in ‘68 and where we are in relation to them
now.
SLAVOJ ZIZEK:
It’s a very nice question.
Why? Because precisely a propos ’68, I think, we can see how — I will use
consciously — an outward ideological struggle is still going on. Struggle for
what? ’68, it’s the same as right here, one or two weeks ago, a wonderful
commentary on Martin Luther King, how every child knows here "I Have a
Dream." Almost nobody knows what was that dream. It wasn’t just racial
equality. Martin Luther King moved way to the left later. That’s obliterated.
It’s the same with ’68. If you
ask people today, what will you get? Ooh, that wonderful explosion of
creativity, anti-bureaucratic, sexual liberation, and so on. That’s, for me,
precisely the least interesting part of ’68. That’s the ’68 which was perfectly
integrated into today’s ideology, self-expression and so on. So if you want to
draw the line, one line from ’68, it is what, for me, as an old-fashioned guy
who likes erotics but with love, is the nightmare. Today’s legacy of that ’68
is alive. And, you know, they have in California, and now it’s spreading to
Europe, a terrible thing called masturbatathon. People gather, you masturbate
publicly, you’re not allowed to touch the other, and, of course, each one has
to pay some money, which goes to politically correct causes and so on. And the
idea, it’s like self-expression: you are alone, but in a crowd. This kind of —
this is what I don’t like.
But there is another ’68,
where people — about which people don’t want to talk. The crucial moment, I
remember, it went — something incredibly happened: students, thousands of them,
demonstrating, establishing a link with workers. People tend to forget that
France was in a general strike, that this wasn’t just a student demonstration.
Everybody would have swallowed that. So that legacy of ’68 is worth saving. So
it’s not simple nostalgia. If we indulge a simple nostalgia for ’68, it means
sexual revolution and all that, so I will tell to those guys, “Go to
masturbatathon. Leave me alone.” No? What — ’68 was a dream, and it failed, a
dream of the possibility of these student protests reaching a wider audience.
Of course, the game is over.
My dream is not “Let’s do it today in that way.” Unfortunately, I don’t believe
there will be a working-class movement which will join with students. But there
are still domains today, where what? Let me ask you briefly — sorry, answer you
briefly. What’s the serious question today? I mean, it’s fashionable to make
fun of Fukuyama now, “Ooh, that idiot who thought history is over.” But aren’t
we all today de facto, even the leftists — what would be the adverb —
Fukuyamaists? Basically, we believe — nobody asks the question, “Will
capitalism stay? Will States stay?” We basically accept the frame.
Liberal democracy — as you
know, in the old days, we were saying we want socialism with a human face.
Today’s left effectively offers global capitalism with a human face, more
tolerance, more rights and so on. So the question is, is this enough or not?
Here I remain a Marxist: I think not. I see a series of, to use this ridiculous
old-fashioned term, contradictions, or I would have said antagonisms, tensions,
from ecology, intellectual copyrights, new slumps excluded, where I think in
the long term the global capitalist system will not be able to cope with these
tensions. Here is the true legacy of ’68.
AMY GOODMAN:
And now we’re in 2008, and
right here in this country, in the midst of this presidential race. I don’t
know how long you’ve been in the United States right now, but you are —
SLAVOJ ZIZEK:
No, but I follow you
[inaudible]. It’s the talk of the world. This may amuse you. It’s going to —
when I was asked by a academic journal to say if I were to hold the power for
one day as president, what — and I would have kind of absolute power to
introduce a law, what law that would have been? My immediate answer was not as
some humanist suggested, since United States at least thinks they are a global
empire, so let every adult in the world be allowed to vote; my advice would be
the opposite one: let’s everybody in the world, except US citizens, be allowed
to vote and elect the American government. I think it would have been much
better for you, even, because we all outside the United States would project
our desires into how you should be. I think it would have been better, so that
only non-Americans vote for —- I know this is a nightmare from Pat Buchanan or
somebody like that, but -—
AMY GOODMAN:
And who do you think would
win?
SLAVOJ ZIZEK:
I think there would have been
like left of Barack, if I may put it this way, no? It would have been probably
not. But going seriously, no, of course, I am — my god, it’s stupid to say —
for Barack and so on. But I see a tragedy here, because like let’s say he wins.
What will he do? The tragedy of today’s left is what? It’s always the same
story. Lula in Brazil, Mandela even. The good guy wins, we are enthusiastic,
then you have around two years usually of period of grace, and then you have
really to decide — do you play with global capitalism, or do you want to mess
with it?
With this, I am not saying it
doesn’t matter. Barack Obama can do things. There are many important gestures,
like Guantanamo, stop with these waterboarding jokes, open relations with Cuba,
recognize this would be incredibly important, recognize the Hague international
tribunal. I will tell you from my European perspective, this was perceived in
Europe as the worst, let’s say, ethical, political catastrophe of the United
States. First they push for international court, then they sabotage it. People
ask today, why are such crazy nationalists in Serbia? I’ll tell you. I spoke
with them. They told me, first, United States push — they are still — sorry, I
will be very brief —- putting pressure on us, deliver Milosevic, Karadzic, all
the criminals to Hague. Then, the same people, time and -—
AMY GOODMAN:
Ten seconds.
SLAVOJ ZIZEK:
Yeah. And sign the
non-extradition treaty. So you are digging your own grave.
