This interview with well-known
philosopher Slavoj Žižek was conducted for Kurdish MedNuçe TV in the Slovenian
capital Ljubljana. In this, the first part of the interview Žižek talks about
the Kurdish question and his views on the Kurdish people. The interview was
translated by Kurdish Question.
Interviewer: A photo of you
and Kurdish leader Abdullah Öcalan is being shared on social media. What is the
story behind this?
Žižek: Yes. They showed me
that photo in Turkey. It’s on the Internet and says that it’s from the 80s. But
I must say that unfortunately it’s not real. However I’m definitely not against
it being done. Conversely I think there’s a beautiful story behind it.
Öcalan is currently in prison
and I think he attaches importance to his identity as an intellectual. I saw
the list of books he has asked for in prison. He’s reading Foucault for
example. As far as I know there’s a cliché about Kurds: They live in mountains
and are a primitive tribe who are in pain. However I have witnessed that Kurds
on the contrary are very secular. The Kurds are endeavouring to present
themselves to the world as being enlightened and modern. This is the correct
method. If I were in your position I’d do the same.
Interviewer: So you never met
Öcalan…
Žižek: No unfortunately not. I
would like to visit him in prison. But I’ve heard he is in isolation, in fact
he can’t even meet his lawyers.
I know that nowadays he is
engaging in more modest politics, he even defines himself as a citizen of this
country. What he wants is autonomy for Kurds. He should have the opportunity to
want more.
Let’s look at history: Kurds
are the biggest victims of colonial separation. The approach of Westerners to
the Middle East is based on which tribe is going to fight which one. In other
words the West decides on this. There’s a tradition of Western intervention in
the Middle East.
The biggest catastrophe was
following WWI. The Italians, French and English decided on how they were going
to divide up the Middle East. Syria was in the hands of Egypt and the other
countries were in the hands of others. Due to this all borders are artificial.
Look at Iraq today: Eastern
Iraq is Shia and under the influence of Iran, Western Iraq is Sunni. From the
perspective of the people a federation would have been reasonable. Look at
Afghanistan and Pakistan, it’s the same everywhere.
Interviewer: Do you see the
situation changing for Kurds?
Žižek: Historically and in the
background one can see a Kurdish map but in the foreground there are artificial
borders. The superpowers will not allow it but if you ask me the best solution
is for all Kurds to be united; at least the east and southeast of Turkey, the
north of Syria and the north of Iraq. They might still be bound to the state in
which they find themselves but historically they have the right to unite.
The safest place in Iraq at
the moment is the Kurdish region. There are flights there from many places in
the world. A legal system and law prevails. There are three groups in Iraq: the
Sunni minority, the Shia majority and Kurds. Under Saddam the Sunnis were
powerful, now we have the Shia hegemony. It doesn’t look too good.
Therefore wouldn’t it be good
to give the Kurds a chance to govern themselves? We know it is a utopia! Until
today the Kurds have settled with defending themselves. They have never had an
imperialist, aggressive inclination. They have never killed the others. Giving
the Kurds the chance for self-governance means stability for the region. Kurds
are the most secular group in the Middle East. To recognise self-governance to
Kurds means support for peace. I know this and support the Kurds
wholeheartedly.
Interviewer: You were in
Istanbul a few days ago. How did you find it?
Žižek: Yes, two days ago. We
spoke about love with a friend. We discussed theology and the slogan, “Love thy
neighbour as thyself” in Christianity. We can say this to Turks: Love Kurds as
thyself. What is happening now is the test of love.
I clarified something else
too: Are you aware of the tragedy of the Kurds and Armenians? The massacre of
Kurds and Armenians is not due to traditional Turkish barbarism but to the
advent of the Young Turks. These things happened with birth of modernism in
Turkey. Compared to today’s state the Ottoman Empire was more tolerant to
minorities and different groups. Problems began with the Young Turks.
During the Yugoslavian War the
largest Jewish minority lived in Sarajevo. Why? Because the Muslim minority had
more tolerance for the Jews than the Christians did.
I would like to prevent any
misunderstanding: What Erdoğan is doing today is savagery. Instead of building
palaces he needs to look back and see which freedoms they had during the
Ottoman Empire and what was better than now.
A short time ago I read the
memoirs of a Frenchman who travelled to Istanbul at the beginning of the 19th century.
His definition of Istanbul at the time is more tolerant than now. He writes of
seeing rabbis and priests on streets. Compared to the nationalist 19thcentury
Europe, Istanbul is more tolerant. If they want to return to the Ottoman
Sultanate they should return to its laws and traditions!
The Ottoman era certainly had
its ugly sides. For example if you were non-Muslim you had to pay extra tax.
However there were some laws for minorities that are better than today.
All leftists know that both
the empires in the East before WWII, the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian, were
more progressive on some issues than today’s states.
Kurds have a key role in the
Middle East. When the Kurdish question is resolved all the issues in the Middle
East will be resolved too. There is an irrational situation in the Balkans at the
moment. Albania and Kosovo, two separate states but the same people. The West
won’t allow them to unite, because they are afraid of a greater Albania. A
Kurdish state in the Middle East conversely isn’t a threat to anyone. In fact
it would be a bridge between peoples.
Interviewer: But the current
situation shows that the opposite position has been taken. Oppression and
violence against Kurds, especially in Turkey, is increasing…
Žižek: Turkey’s stance is
disgraceful, scary. Erdoğan’s party isn’t going to win the majority in the
upcoming election either. So I think that leftists, Kemalists and Kurds can
form a bloc. Of course these latest clashes are serving Erdoğan. They want to
present the Kurds as being the aggressors and pull them under the election
threshold.
The threshold in Turkey is
very high. That’s why this is a dirty game. It’s not just a matter of killing
or beating the Kurds either. If the Kurds are left under the threshold what can
social democrats do?
I find it positive that the
Kurds have changed their approach. They need to work to promote and present
themselves to the world rather than just looking for pity. In short the Kurds
are not just people fighting in the mountains, but the region’s most
progressive and democratic nation, group. This is how they need to present
themselves. Every time I visit Istanbul I have many Kurdish listeners. The main
aim of the Kurds’ propaganda should be to change the perception of the Western
world regarding Kurds.
Interviewer: The international
left has not supported or developed solidarity with the Kurdish struggle like
it has with Palestine or Latin America. Do you think this is just because the
Kurds didn’t present themselves in the right way?
Žižek: This isn’t your
problem, but the problem of Western leftists who I am ashamed of. Most of the
leftists here have drowned in their own clichés: Anti-fascism, opposition
against the Vatican…
An interesting example I heard
from Radovan Karadzic (Bosnian-Serbian politician): During the Yugoslavian
Civil War Sarajevo was under Serbian siege, a humanitarian corridor could have
been opened with very little Western pressure; but the West didn’t request this
from the Serbs. Karadzic told me this himself. Again when Slovenia and Croatia
separated, leftists opposed it; “It’s time to unite, why are you separating?”
they said; but when the Catalans want to break away they support it. In other
words there are peoples who have the permission to do this and others who
don’t…
I don’t understand. The West
supported Kosovo and Chechnya. But no one is saying anything for the Kurds. I
think you need to analyse the global geopolitical movements behind the reason
for this. As Kurds, and I’m not saying this in terms of violence, you need to
play very cruelly. That is to say you need to play the powers against each other
and comprehend them well.
Interviewer: But the results
of a politics like this in the region is clear for everyone to see… The
refugees…
Žižek: Listen, for me the
biggest ethical and political scandal is this: Look at the Middle East, even
European countries. If we were to generalise there are three types of
countries: Very poor, medium-wealth and very wealthy. Where are the refugees?
In poor or medium-wealth countries… So countries like Turkey, Jordan, and
Egypt. There are more than a million refugees in each of these countries.
Europe is quite wealthy in comparison, and there are some refugees here.
However the policy of very wealthy countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or
United Arab Emirates is one of ‘No to Refugees.” These countries don’t even
have the right to say, “Sorry but this isn’t our war.” Saudi Arabia supports
anti-Assad forces. This is shameful. Everyone is ready to isolate and sanction
Israel, but what about pressuring Turkey for what it is doing to Kurds? Or
pressuring Saudi Arabia? Saudi Arabia is without defence, because it is not
just a traditional Muslim country, in a way it represents the Western banks.
Its subsistence comes from banks. In other words Saudi Arabia is nothing
without Western banks and I’m not even counting Dubai and the others! These aren’t
just rich but also Sunni countries. They should have been closer to the
refugees on a religious and cultural level too.
Interviewer: The Kurds have a
vision, a model for an equal life: Democratic Autonomy…
Žižek: For me at this point
the Kurds are very important. Now I’m going to say something ironic, which most
people will not agree with: I think the Kurds need to be another version of
Jews in the Middle East. So, not oppressive or invasive, but dynamic and open…
The sensitivity of Kurds could be an example. The autonomy of Kurds is a great
hope.
A person needs to be
realistic. There is a crisis in the Middle East. From where or who can
something new come? I think the Kurds are one of the places where something new
is going to come from.
I always test my Arab friends
who say, “I support democracy,” with the question: What do you think about the
Kurds? You can test them with this. I can say this candidly: I want everything
to go well for Kurds and want to visit them (in Rojava); but I don’t know how
to do this. I really want to. And then I want to visit Öcalan outside his cell.
Interviewer: As you know there
are cantons in Rojava…
Žižek: What is the chance
politically of these cantons surviving?
Interviewer: They have made
many gains in terms of self-governance until now…
Žižek: Maybe after a certain
time there will be peace. However I don’t believe that Syria can be defended
for too much longer. I think it’s too late. I don’t think Syria can be saved.
Interviewer: However there is
a system being erected in Rojava, lead by Kurds, that includes all the peoples
of Syria who were living together until now.
Žižek: This is the problem.
During the Assad rule, even though he is a dictator, there was some sort of
ethnic balance. Yes Assad favoured his own group, and this was the problem.
If I were in the position the
Kurds find themselves in I would go a little further. I don’t think it’s
sufficient that there are cantons in Syria or the southeast of Turkey. There
needs to be permission for these to be joined together. Maybe not as a separate
state, but there needs to be unity. This would be a great gain.
I really send my best wishes.
I want to visit those areas too. Are there universities in these cantons? How
does one go there?
Interviewer: Yes, there are
universities. You can go from Turkey or South Kurdistan (KRG)…
Žižek: And the Turkish state
allows this?
Interviewer: Even though they
are not very happy about it, they do…
Žižek: Of course, and then you
will find my corpse somewhere nearby. No I’m kidding, I seriously wish to go.
Could you tell me something, is there anyone to translate at these universities
in Rojava? In other words can I speak English there? How will it work?
Interviewer: I don’t think you
will have trouble with language. It is possible to find people who speak
Kurdish, Arabic, English, Turkish, Armenian… indeed most languages.
Žižek: Armenian too? Then I’ll
go! And do they have universities there too? If they did it would be amazing.
OK, I will fly over from Turkey. I’m lazy. I don’t want to travel 10 hours in a
car.
Slavoj Zizek is a
Slovenian philosopher, cultural
critic, and Marxistintellectual. He is a senior researcher at the Institute
for Sociology and Philosophy at the University of Ljubljana, Global
Distinguished Professor of German at New York University, and international
director of the Birkbeck Institute for the
Humanities. His work is located at the intersection of a range of
disciplines, including continental philosophy,political
theory, cultural studies, psychoanalysis, film
criticism, and theology.
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